Saturday, November 19, 2005

Inspiration and Scripture, or, "This Calls For An Entirely New Post"

The book of First Kings (19:11-15) records an extraordinary scene in which God reveals himself to a despairing Elijah. The prophet is sent to stand on the mountain so that God may come near. When God arrives a violent wind rips at the mountain, followed by an earthquake and a raging fire; but the writer tells us that God was not in the wind, nor the earthquake, nor the fire. After these phenomena had passed, there came to Elijah what the text ironically describes as the sound of an absolute silence, through which the prophet encountered God. In the absence of any audible sound, Elijah clearly heard the voice of God.

In addressing the question of what revelation means, I think it necessary to ask in what way Elijah “heard” God speak on the mountain. As it is recorded in the biblical text, Elijah’s experience did not come from reading a scroll, nor did it result from a physical sound such as a human voice coming into Elijah’s ears. Indeed, it seems that God did not use any physical or quantifiable means to impart his message to the prophet. Instead, Elijah experienced God’s presence internally, as if God communicated directly to the prophet’s soul.
I contend that this sort of peculiar and immeasurable experience is the way that God communicates to each and every one of us. Rather than using actual words, God reveals Godself to humanity by acting within us through our emotions, in visions, and by way of intellectual inspiration. In turn, as we have experienced God’s presence it becomes the task of the individual to understand and communicate the meaning of their unique divine experience. Because each of us are human and fallible, however, individuals confronted with such an experience (or the description and interpretation of another’s experience) cannot simply assume that any human interpretation can fully and/or accurately reflect the essence of God’s communication.

Because the divine message cannot help but to have a human filter if it is to be communicated to the rest of the community, theologians must carefully scrutinize any verbal or written account that purports to carry such a message for the tell-tale failings of that filter. This means that even the texts that have come to be accepted as being the authoritative “Word of God” must be subject to reevaluation in the light of our developing knowledge about the Universe and God’s continuing interaction with humanity. The only way to resolve the resulting uncertainties as to what should be considered authoritative is to compare our own experiences with the experiences that others have shared, and to look for commonalities that will trace our understandings and experiences to the same divine source. The similarities that we find in the religious experiences of other individuals and faith traditions can only strengthen our assurance of God’s message along those lines, and even the differences that we find among our various experiences and traditions may help to broaden our conception of God’s nature and will.

So to put all that more concisely, the Bible was not dictated by angels sitting on the shoulders of its authors. The collected writings that eventually came to be accepted as the Hebrew and Christian scriptures were the work of many people from different eras and locations, each of whom shared the same limitations of perspective and understanding that any of us experience. Many of the authors do demonstrate exceptional insight into God’s nature and will, and some (like the prophets) were likely able to receive messages directly from God. But despite their unusual spiritual awareness, these authors’ understandings of the world – and, I believe, of God – were frequently defined and limited by their historical setting, and therefore were not always complete. I have previously described the difficulties of this situation as follows:

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As children, many of us played the “Telephone Game”, in which one person starts a message through a chain of communicants and the last person in the chain attempts to recreate the original message for all to hear. But, of course, the words employed by the last person in the chain never precisely duplicate the first speaker’s words, and frequently the content of the message is lost or twisted as it gets passed from one person to the next. When the last player gives their version of the message that was passed on to them the results are frequently amusing, because the message may be radically different at the end of the line than it was at the beginning.

The reason that the game works is that whenever any human experiences communication from an external source, they interpret those sensations in accordance with a unique perspective that is defined by the listener’s particular circumstances or their life experience. Many factors could contribute to the garbling of the message. The listener could be distracted by something else going on, so that they just aren’t paying attention. The room could be too loud for the listener to hear clearly, or they could have internal hearing problems that prevent them from accurately receiving the communication. Or the listener could have certain pre-established sensitivities that inspire them to remember or perceive a slightly different message than the one they originally received. Regardless of the particular reason, the result is the same. The message changes in a very real way from the way it was communicated to the original listener to the way that it will later be communicated to others.

Religion, understood as the various systems of belief and morality that have been discerned from humanity’s experience with God, is the history of a message that has been passed from person to person and generation to generation. Every time the ideas, beliefs, and doctrines of a particular faith are passed on to a new listener, the message encounters a unique human filter. That filter may entail certain philosophical notions, social norms, personal predispositions, or any other of a variety of potential influences on how the message will be understood by the hearers. Even where the individual who has had a religious experience has been able to make a written record of their interpretation of that experience, there is no certainty that they will have recorded it in such a way that others who encounter it later will come away with the message that the writer intended, much less a full rendering of the writer’s experience with God. This is evident in the way that religious groups have splintered time and time again over differing interpretations of scripture.

My goal, at present, is not to trace the historical path of Christian doctrines and beliefs. But I believe it is of paramount importance to acknowledge that those doctrines and beliefs, as we have come to know them, have not (and do not) pass unmediated from God’s mouth to our ears. They have been altered somewhat in the transmission. And if we, as Christians, are to take seriously the task of discerning God’s will for our lives, we must necessarily determine why these changes have taken place and what we are to do with them.

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So that leads to the differences of opinion that many have about the historical precision of the Gospel accounts, the importance of sacrifice under the Mosaic law as opposed to Jesus's own sacrifice, and about Paul's authority to say that the Christian faith is worthless (i.e., Jesus's sacrifice was ineffectual) if Jesus's physical body was not revived after the crucifixion. I'll try to take these one at a time.

As for the Gospels, it is highly unlikely that any of them were authored by people closely associated with Jesus during his ministry. Mark is almost universally regarded as being the earliest of the Gospels that were included in the New Testament, probably written by a member of Peter's community twenty to thirty years after Jesus's death. Luke is likely the second-oldest of the New Testament Gospels, written sometime before A.D. 60 by someone who had spoken extensively with Jesus's disciples, but who had not known Jesus personally. Matthew was probably written at about the same time as Luke by a member of the same community - which is evidenced by the fact that they each draw heavily from the same source materials. Many (though far from all) contemporary Historical Jesus scholars believe that there was another written document (called the Q document) that Matthew and Luke relied on because the two gospels share significant similarities, not only in the stories related about Jesus, but in the structure and phrasing of those stories. It is highly unlikely that the author of Matthew is actually Matthew the disciple, for two primary reasons: 1) a man who had actually been one of Jesus's companions would have had no need to look to the Gospel of Mark (or whatever source the author shared with Luke) for stories about Jesus; and 2) the average lifespan for people in that day and age was very short, and if we assume that Matthew was about Jesus's age during his ministry that would put him at 55-65 years old when the book was written. Of course, these facts don't preclude the possibility that Matthew the disciple authored the book that bears his name, but it does call it into serious question.

The uncertainty about the authorship of Biblical writings, combined with the regular concerns that I have about the historical limitations of the authors' understandings and the way that humans filter their experiences, profoundly affects the way that I read the Bible. In my mind, these considerations do absolutely nothing to detract from the central importance of Jesus's unique relationship with God, his revelation of the Kingdom of God, or his eventual sacrificial death - but they do require me to think carefully about the way that various authors have interpreted Jesus's presence, teaching, and death. The difficulty that I find (and I hear it in questions raised by several of you in responding to the previous post) is that some will demand that only their understanding of Jesus can be correct or acceptable. While I appreciate the reasons that some of you may feel that way, I cannot share those feelings and I think that they warrant reconsideration. So I hope that answers that question.

Now, I briefly and specifically want to address Margie's concern about differentiating Christianity from any other religious tradition. Yes, it is entirely possible that God brought Jesus back from the grave as a concrete demonstration that Jesus was superior to all others who have claimed to be God's messenger/Messiah. But are you really suggesting that Jesus needs this sort of one-upmanship to justify our devotion? Jesus was unique in his teachings and in his status as the chosen Son of God. A physical resurrection would not change that, even if it would be a convincing demonstration. If someone dedicates their life to Christ simply because he was raised from the dead, I think that they've missed the point entirely. Again, in no way am I saying it didn't happen. I'm just saying that it's kind of beside the point. I am a Christian because I believe that Jesus brought the Kingdom of God into the world through his presence, words, and actions. I don't need any further proof, and I would hope that no one else would, either.

JR, to the extent that you question why Jesus would have even come to us if not for sacrifice, I would say something very similar. It is very possible that God does, in fact require blood in order to forgive sin. It may well be that Jesus had to die for our redemption. But even if God didn't require his death, Jesus came to perfect God's message to humanity, to correct the errors that had built up under the Mosaic law, to demonstrate with his life God's love for humanity and God's calling for each of us. That is, I believe, a perfectly valid alternative understanding of Jesus's mission, even if some will find it unsatisfactory.


Sacrifice and Resurrection

I'll start here with resurrection. Hannah raised the question about whether Christ needed to be resurrected to "defeat death." No, I don't think so at all. I think that we very frequently get distressingly and unnecessarily distracted about what God needs in order to be able to forgive. Let's not forget that God is God. God granted salvation (eternal spiritual life) and raised people from the dead (extended physical life) long, long before Jesus was with us. Death was already absolutely subject to God's desires. If God wanted to "defeat" death, it certainly wouldn't require God to come to earth in person, die, and come back to life. Christian theologians (perhaps even Peter - although I think it's not at all clear that this was what he was getting at in the passage you cited) seized upon the idea of Jesus's resurrection and attributed to it this additional layer of meaning - not only was this a concrete sign of Jesus's unique relationship with God, not only was his revival important to reassure the disciples that he really was the Messiah and that the Kingdom of God would continue beyond his death, but Jesus actually broke down the gates of Hell so that death no longer had any power! Well... no. Death has continued to function, in the wake of the resurrection, precisely as it has always functioned. Likewise, and to the best of my understanding, our redemption post-crucifixion is not at all qualitatively different from what God has always offered to those who chose to serve him.

This leads us to JR's quotations from the book of Hebrews, which (in turn) was quoting from the book of Jeremiah. JR, you seem to have quoted these passages to support the idea that Jesus's sacrificial death was different in effect from the ritual sacrifices offered throughout Jewish history. It's clear that the author of Hebrews, whoever he was, thought so. He purports to be quoting Jesus, though I don't know where (if anywhere) in the Gospels the quotes can be found, to the effect that Jesus recognized that the traditional sacrifices just weren't cutting it (the author of Hebrews says that they could "never take away sins") and needed to be replaced with one perfect, once-and-for-all sacrifice. But the author shows flawed logic. In Hebrews 7, he infers that the sacrifices of old were ineffectual because Jesus became a new and perfect sacrifice. ("If perfection could have been attained through the Levitical priesthood (for on the basis of it the law was given to the people), why was there still need for another priest to come—one in the order of Melchizedek, not in the order of Aaron? For when there is a change of the priesthood, there must also be a change of the law." - Hebrews 7:11-12)

[This is all I could write while I'm in Philadelphia today. I'll finish up my thoughts in the next day or so.]

18 Comments:

At 5:50 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Dave:

How do you explain 2 Timothy 3:15-16? It clearly states that all scripture is from God. Now, Paul, at the time was referring to the Old Testament, but it could certainly be applied to what has become the New Testament as well.

The problem with your argument is that once you introduce fallacy into scripture, you take away God's power and purpose when He inspired scripture. Who's to say that any of the Bible is correct according to your argument! Either you believe in scripture, or you don't, I don't see a middle ground. Who am I or who are you to arbitrarily say that Paul was incorrect in his interpretation of events. Paul at least lived in the same century as Jesus!

Finally, by saying that scripture can be incorrect, and let's be clear, you ARE saying that! You are saying that God did not, could not, or was not willing to make scripture (The Bible) divine. How can you say that? What proof do you have? I think this is a dangerous line of thought, although not a new one, as the Sadduccees made the same argument.

One last thought...in an open forum like this, do you think new Christians are ready for this type of discussion?

 
At 10:37 AM, Blogger Shayna Willis said...

Brent,

You hit on an important point, Paul was referring to the scripture that had been put together before his letters. Correct me if I'm wrong (and I know you will if I'm wrong) Paul never claims to know that what he has written will ever become scripture. Paul was referring to the prophecies about Jesus most likely in his letter to Timothy.

New Christians and seekers alike struggle with what is seen as inconsistencies throughout the Bible. Better to address them then to pretend they don't exist. But perhaps this question should be addressed not in a public forum . . . It seems as if you're worried that Dave is causing a brother to stumble . . . ?

My two cents . . .

 
At 12:11 PM, Blogger Pelagius said...

As each of you hinted, Paul was most definitely only referring to the Old Testament. In fact, he was likely only referring to the first five books (those attributed to Moses), the prophetic books, and (for some parts of the Jewish community, though not all) perhaps a majority of the Psalms. To the best of our knowledge, the Hebrew scriptures did not assume their final, authoritative form until the late-Second Century - which is why Jesus principally refers to "the Law and the Prophets" in Matthew 5:17, 7:12, 22:36-40, and Luke 16:16-17, 24:44.

You set up a false dichotomy with the all-or-nothing approach that you suggest. However it would simplify things to think about inspiration and the Bible in terms of black-and-white absolutes, I don't think that it is at all reasonable to do so, given what we know about how these particular writings came to us. There is ambiguity, and there is uncertainty, however discomforting it might be to acknowledge that. Our task is to make our best efforts to understand how we are called to live and then to put that into practice. Just ask the people who heard Jesus and were baffled by his teachings if it's ever been a walk in the park to understand. Further, I would hope that the extensive explanations I've given for my thoughts would demonstrate that my disagreements with Paul are anything but "arbitrary."

I do maintain that the authors of the biblical texts had limited, human perspectives. But that simply changes the way that we should think about its authority, and it absolutely doesn't mean that we should abandon it. I've tried to explain why in this post. It's not my role (nor do I have any desire) to list the litany of reasons that other people feel that the Bible isn't worthy of our respect - because I strenuously disagree with them, too!

As to whether "new Christians are ready for this type of discussion"... I should hope so! As stated my response to another of your comments, Truth has nothing to fear from the light of honest inquiry. I think it is unquestionably a good thing for anyone to think carefully about their faith, because I think that such careful introspection should (whether or not they end up agreeing with me) inexorably lead to a richer, more deeply felt committment to God.

 
At 1:36 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

I know you've taken a lot of heat already, but I'd like to put in my 2 cents.

I'm not willing to take on the question of whether God "could have" erased our sins and given us salvation without a physical resurrection. I'll ask him when I see him face to face. However, from any reading of the scriptures it is clear that the resurrection in fact was physical as well as spiritual. Matthew, Luke, and John all have accounts of people seeing Jesus physically alive after the resurrection. Mark also includes the empty tomb, though early manuscripts did not include Jesus' ascension. The Luke and John accounts include disciples physically touching Jesus to be sure he is in fact really there. Thomas, in particular, insists on putting his fingers in the holes left by the nails.

Of the 4 Gospels, Matthew and Mark recall pretty much the same story regarding Jesus' appearances after the resurrection, but Luke & John each include additional events that aren't at all addressed in Mark and Matthew. Therefore the argument that the others borrowed from Mark, which doesn't include the physical sightings, fails when applied to Luke and John.

Whether God "could have" done things another way is immaterial, becuase clearly God chose to use the physical resurrection. To me the physical resurrection serves as a concrete indicator of God's power over death that I can look to in moments of doubt. I think if one denies that, he only hurts himself.

 
At 6:38 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

To save myself some typing, I'm going to reply to a couple of issues that have spanned several blogs & comments.

I don't think you can simply say that 2 Timothy refers only to the Old Testament or the first 5 books of the Bible. True, that is what Paul meant at the time, but we can come up with numerous examples of Old Testament scriptures that clearly reference events and thoughts of the contemporary setting that applied to a future plan or event. My belief is that the reason the Bible is the way it is, and has held to its present form over the last 1500 years or so is that it is the word of God, God inspired it, and God, working through men, compiled it. It has authority. What you were challenging is the authority of the Bible. An excellent discussion, but, your arguments do not hold up to logic. If Paul was in error, then so also could any of the authors of the Bible. If you believe that, then what do you have left to base your faith on?

Regarding the Resurrection...I agree that you never said the Resurrection did not take place, what you were questioning was the relevance of the Resurrection. My point, and I think Andy stated it pretty well...God chose to use a physical Resurrection in his plan, that makes it relevant. Regarding dismissing the passages I referenced in Matthew, Mark, and Luke so rapidly. My point wasn't that they were talking about Jesus' resurrection or a resurrection that occurs much later. My point was that Jesus was talking about resurrection in terms of the fact that God is the God of life, not the dead....I think that gives us an insight on why God felt it important to Resurrect Jesus.

Finally, I bring up the Colossians and other passages, not to malign you Dave, but to bring up the importance of standing firm in the Truth. I cited it because it is important to remember what it says. The very same arguments can be used to teach "truth" that is not Truth. That is what that scripture and scriptures like it are warning against.

Regarding my comments on new christians, there is a time for milk & cookies for new christians and there is a time for meat. I think you are posting meat, which new christians are not always ready for. Challenging their thoughts on the authority of scripture, just after they begin to believe in scripture, may not have a positive impact. The problem with the internet is that it is open to everyone.

As you've seen, I do not normally post on blogs, but I felt strongly enough about these comments that I had to mention my thoughts.

J.R....Ridiculous is spelled with an "i"!!!

 
At 6:48 PM, Blogger Shayna Willis said...

JR, you make some good points; (the obligatory nicities before the "but")however, I think we tend to filter what Jesus said through our own experience and through the experience of those who wrote the Bible. Jesus's message was mostly about material gifts, how to use them, loving God, good works, and loving your neighbor. Never does Jesus say, "Worship me." And in fact, he draws attention away from himself by saying that He is not good, only the heavenly Father is good. Some believe that the correct translation of "no one gets to the father except through me" actually means, "walk in Jesus' footsteps," not accept Jesus as your savior. And on the other side of this it is true that some think this is a stretch. The very nature of Dave is to turn heads and create philosophical arguments that get us thinking about our faith in different ways. We can have discussions that ask questions that have obvious answers from a faith standpoint and that's ok. The crux of this argument/discussion hinges on the word "resurrection" which will hopefully happen to all of us someday. And we probably won't get our bodies back . . .

 
At 7:56 PM, Blogger Shayna Willis said...

Brent, I base my faith on my personal relationship with God and not on the scriptures. The very canonization of the Bible left out what many consider to be scriptures and the inclusion of Revelations was always an issue of division. Paul's letters while inspired by his relationship with God do not have to be holy for us to have faith in God. This is good news for those of us who are trying to share our faith with someone who refuses to believe in the Bible. Saying that Paul is referring to himself is an interpretation of the Bible that I have a hard time swallowing. Paul was an orthodox Jew. When he said scriptures, he meant the Old Testament and would never have been referring to his own letters at the risk of being considered a blasphemer. In addition, in Paul's letter to Timothy, he refers to what he is writing as "my doctrine" furthering the idea that he didn't think of it as scripture.

 
At 8:43 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Shayna,

That's my point, Paul isn't referring to himself. God is writing through Paul. I would also argue that without the Bible, you would have no personal relationship with God, that's why God left us the Bible. A personal relationship with God is a must, but basing our faith on our personal relationship where one side is "us" raises questions to me. Doesn't this lead to the "I can't imagine a God who..." line of reasoning? An argument that I personally do not like, because we, as humans, can't dictate who God is.

 
At 9:55 PM, Blogger Jeff said...

Good points all around and I have a couple of comments as well.

First, I do NOT believe that God calls us to blindly accept what the Bible says. I believe not only because of some printed words but because I see, feel, and encounter God's presence in my life and in the world. Questioning the intention and interpretation of the Bible is NOT unreasonable. It is what makes us stronger and can shake our faith. If the latter, then perhaps our faith needs some work.

Second, I mentioned in the Sunday morning class on miracles that true God-inspired miracles (as portrayed in the Bible) predominantly follow a pattern: first a miracle is performed, then the message is given, and only then are conversions made. There are no requirements to having a miracle performed. The miracle simply validated the speaker's authority and the words spoken.

In the same way, Christ's resurrection does appear to have been required AND physical. Jesus preformed many miracles to validate His authority and words, and His physical resurrection was the final validation that He was the son of God. How do you think the disciples were feeling after His death? They had followed Him, seen His miracles, heard His testimony, believed He was the son of God. And then He is killed. I'm willing to bet they were scared and dismayed. Where was the Savior they had believed in? So Jesus once more validated His authority while fulfilling prior prophesies. The gospels say Jesus appeared to the disciples, showed them His hands and side, ate dinner with them. His physical resurrection was necessary to provide evidence that His word was the word of life. Without that validation I would find it surprising if the disciples spread the words of a dead "man." I definitely believe that His physical resurrection was a requirement.

Unlike some others, I have enjoyed the posed question and responses. In fact, I am MORE convinced that Jesus did actually physically arise. Thomas touched the wounds, and in a way we are all doubting Thomases and need evidence, even if that evidence is faith in the accounts given to us. If I am to believe that the gospels are true, then I must believe that. If I question that account, then I must question the recorded words of Jesus Himself, which I am not willing to do.

 
At 11:14 PM, Blogger Jeff said...

To further confuse things, I wanted to make something clear. I am NOT saying that the resurrection (physical) was necessary, specifically, for the redemption of man. I DO think it was necessary in order to validate Jesus' words, embolden the disciples to spread the good news, and fulfill prophesies. I'm just not sure that the resurrection in and of itself is what redeems us. Rather, I'm not sure that without the resurrection we wouldn't be redeemed through Jesus' death alone. But without the resurrection the disciples may not have spread the word as effectively or even at all - thereby making the resurrection necessary. It may be that way, but quite frankly I don't see the point in arguing it. If it is accepted that the resurrection was necessary (for whatever reasons), what is gained by debating its specific relevance? One way or another it was a PART of God's plan to redeem of mankind.

Just thought I'd throw that out there.

 
At 8:36 AM, Blogger Shayna Willis said...

I love you all, really! :-)

JR, yes, you are reading me wrong, though I can see where the confusion may come from. The issue is this . . . there are people for whom the Bible is not the Holy Word of God. For these people, there must be a bridge to the text. This bridge is the showing of Jesus to people through relationship building. Then, people say, there must be something to this whole Christian thing, maybe I should pick up the Bible.

Brent, my faith did not come from a book. God gave it to me directly when I asked for it and Kelli and you and everyone else showed me what Jesus was all about. To be perfectly honest, the Bible confused me more than clarified things for me when I was a new Christian. This does not take away from the text but now, that I am a Christian, God speaks to me through His word. But I maintain that my salvation does not come from a book and that before that Word was written down, it came to us in the form of Jesus. John Chapter 1 says that.

 
At 8:37 AM, Blogger Shayna Willis said...

Jeff, I like the way you think . . . ;-)

 
At 9:05 AM, Blogger Shayna Willis said...

Oh, yeah, :-) . . . and I'm not trying to relegate Jesus to a good man who did good things. Jesus refers to Himself as the ultimate prophet that God sent to earth and as God's son and equal to God, these things are true. Just because Jesus didn't say, "Worship me" doesn't mean we don't. But it does mean that we need to stop the "Christian Checklist" Mentality. Worship Jesus, check, go to church, check, accept Jesus, check. If we do this, we relegate God to a box and ignore the message that Jesus spread, we also endanger ourselves by thinking that we're doing all we should and then, the Devil can get a foothold and our "religion" takes over and our relationship with God and others falls by the wayside. This was such a sticking point in the early church that James wrote a whole book warning of it.

None of this it to say that the Bible isn't relevant, but God wants us to actively seek Him. He never plainly stated what he wanted from us. So the argument that "God wouldn't give us a flawed book" is futile. As many have said, we don't know what God would or wouldn't do. After all, there are more forces than good in this world . . .

 
At 12:02 PM, Blogger Shayna Willis said...

In addition, before the Bible was canonized people found their faith through having the faith of others shared with them. there was no Bible to bring people to Christ. We know that at least 5000 people came to Christ this way before Paul even started writing his letters. So to say that we can't have faith without it is to undo all the work of the pre-Bible early church.

 
At 1:09 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Dave,

Interesting points for discussion, and I have enjoyed reading the responses as well. I will address my concerns regarding both posts:

You cited Moltmann’s assertion that the importance of believing in the resurrection lies in the hope that it engenders that God is in the process of resurrecting the entire world. You also pointed out that Moltmann cited Troeltch’s argument that it is futile to think of the resurrection in historical terms because the event transcends any historical analogy. In my opinion, it is the resurrection’s uniqueness that makes it necessary to consider in historical terms. Why is an analogy required to understand it?

You stated that the content of Jesus’ teachings does not depend on his bodily resurrection; however, Jesus himself predicted his own death and subsequent resurrection (Mark 8: 30 – 33). This was part of his self-identification as the Messiah. In addition, his resurrection finishes the path laid out before those who would follow him: death to self/sin and a subsequent new life (resurrection) in Christ. If we follow him, we cannot go where he has not gone, and that includes the new life.

You state that sacrifice is a peripheral element (or more peripheral) in forgiveness, because God’s true desire is for a contrite heart. I don’t think that anybody has an issue with the idea that God desires us to be remorseful for our sin. However, unless I completely missed the point in OT Theology, Jewish thought of the time was that the sacrificial animal took on the sin; in a singularly spiritual fashion, putting the animal to death was equivalent to putting our sins to death. And I believe that the Jews’ understanding of this concept was meant to apply to Jesus’ death as well. On the cross, Jesus took on our sin. This may be the source of his lament “My God My God, why have you forsaken me” (which he quoted from Psalm 22)? We know that God does not fellowship sin. It seems that with Jesus taking on our sins on the cross, that God withdrew from him because God would not fellowship sin even in his own Son.

2nd post

You stated that the Bible was not dictated by angels sitting on the shoulders of its authors. I take no issue with that. If the task were simply dictation, why would God have used human authors at all? Why not simply drop the completed text from the sky, with accompanying fanfare? God elected to communicate His truth through chosen writers, allowing for their personalities and perspectives (albeit limited) to frame the truths and concepts. But even more important, he chose believers. This does not undermine the authority of scripture. Why assume that God gave the writers the message but never accounted for their shortcomings in perspective? Why would God choose writers who might “filter” the message in undesirable ways? Why would God not “edit” or “proof read” their work? (I am not trying to account for translations, only original texts)

You raised the point about the time-lapse between Jesus’ ministry and Mark’s gospel. However, this does not account for the oral tradition. While today we may not place much importance on oral tradition, it was recognized as a valid means of transmitting history in the ancient world, and not just in the Judeo-Christian tradition. The first biography of Alexander the Great was not written until 400 years after his death. It was based on the oral tradition of the Greeks. In addition, the human “filter” is the point of the multiple gospels, written to different audiences. And while there are instances where the gospels are inconsistent, they are consistent on Jesus’ teachings, death, and resurrection. Furthermore, none of the gospels makes a claim to be comprehensive.

Jesus’ resurrection is not one-upsmanship nor is it ONLY about defeating death. The significance of the resurrection is multi-dimensional. It does validate Jesus’ claims about himself, it does defeat death (in the sense that the believer need have no fear of death, especially as a result of persecution), and it paves the way for those who follow him. None of the epistles claim that there is no more physical death in this world, but rather, that Christ made death something to not be feared. What is more, those who followed Christ in the first and part of the second centuries could expect a physical death as a consequence of their faith.

I agree with your assertion that the truth has nothing to fear from investigation. However, there is no truly objective way to approach these events and writing. Our perspective, in many ways, is as limited as those of the Biblical authors. Our approach to scripture is subjective, based on our personalities, philosophical presumptions, historical and cultural context, and worldviews. We cannot assume that our hindsight makes us infallible.

This leads to my belief of why we need to consider scripture authoritative. All people are subjective thinkers. If we rely solely on our experiences and presuppositions to define our faith, we start down a road that at best leads to error and at worst leads to abuse. We have no other objective, universally accepted source for our faith than the Word.

 
At 1:21 PM, Blogger Pelagius said...

Fantastic comment, Odge. I have some small disagreements with you, which I hope will be explained in my next post (hopefully tomorrow), but you have offered an extremely well-considered, well-stated response.

Jeff, I think we're also on similar pages - although you might disagree when you see my next post. But it'll mostly be stuff that we've discussed before.

Thanks to everyone for continuing to participate in the conversation!

 
At 6:12 PM, Blogger crazykarl7 said...

wow. This is quite possibly the longest post/comment I've ever read. It's been very interesting to me and really challenged me to think (which Shayna can tell you, I don't like to do).

I don't really have anything new to add to the conversation. I think everyone has stated pretty much anything that I could come up with. Which is a little disheartening, not because it isn't fun to read but it just shows me my limitations on how well I can forumlate arguments and debate.

I wonder if we could better capture this through a forum, or if people prefer a blog post. We can create a free one that will allow us to see who's reading at that time/private messaging/emoticons (so no feelings are hurt)

It doesn't matter to me either way. I was just thinking of having one place to have posts/comments rather than multiple blogs/perspectives would be easier to follow.

 
At 6:13 PM, Blogger crazykarl7 said...

PS: I look forward to reading your next post Dave.

 

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